Whew, awesome thread, great ideas, etc.
As I've stated before, the 'severity' of Pantheon's death penalty will likely lie inbetween two 'extremes': Vanilla EQ and Vanilla VG. We need to find that sweet spot in-between the two. Totally naked corpse runs are probably too extreme. But, on the other end of the pendulum, trivializing death penalties leads to all sorts of problems. Players don't respect the environment, aren't encouraged to play seriously and with forethought, etc. At the same time, if we go too far the other way, many players will want to avoid death to such a great degree that exploration, trying new tactics, taking on that formidable boss-mob, etc. will suffer.
The goal, of course, is to come up with a death penalty that is desired by our target audience. That's easier said than done, though, because even though you all are more often on the same page than not when it comes to design and mechanics, there are a few categories where there is not an obvious or clear mandate from our community. The death penalty, of course, is one of these.
So when it comes to situations like this, here is our general approach:
Define the two extremes. Set up the system where it's relatively easy to 'tune' between these two extremes. Implement during alpha and beta the system and adjust the 'tuning'. Watch the players, listen to the community, etc. Adjust accordingly and, hopefully, narrow things down.
This is, of course, a great example of why a long beta is so important to MMORPG development. Opinions and plans are great, but often until players are actually experiencing these critical mechanics and systems we developers need to wait and watch (and not commit to specifics).
So that will be our approach -- try the spectrum out in alpha and beta, listen to the community, experience it ourselves, and slowly but surely iron out the details.
Lastly, in the event that the community becomes truly split on something as critical as the Death Penalty and its associated mechanics, we always have the option to implement variations on the theme depending on the server/shard. Athough it's far too early to speculate with any certainty, the penalty for dying in Pantheon may turn out to be something that becomes part of our Alternate Ruleset Servers, with the details and severity depending on which server/shard you've chosen to play on.
Aradune said:Define the two extremes. Set up the system where it's relatively easy to 'tune' between these two extremes. Implement during alpha and beta the system and adjust the 'tuning'. Watch the players, listen to the community, etc. Adjust accordingly and, hopefully, narrow things down.
This is, of course, a great example of why a long beta is so important to MMORPG development. Opinions and plans are great, but often until players are actually experiencing these critical mechanics and systems we developers need to wait and watch (and not commit to specifics).
Nothing to say here this statement speaks for itself.
+1 from me
Aradune said:Whew, awesome thread, great ideas, etc.
As I've stated before, the 'severity' of Pantheon's death penalty will likely lie inbetween two 'extremes': Vanilla EQ and Vanilla VG. We need to find that sweet spot in-between the two. Totally naked corpse runs are probably too extreme. But, on the other end of the pendulum, trivializing death penalties leads to all sorts of problems. Players don't respect the environment, aren't encouraged to play seriously and with forethought, etc. At the same time, if we go too far the other way, many players will want to avoid death to such a great degree that exploration, trying new tactics, taking on that formidable boss-mob, etc. will suffer.
The goal, of course, is to come up with a death penalty that is desired by our target audience. That's easier said than done, though, because even though you all are more often on the same page than not when it comes to design and mechanics, there are a few categories where there is not an obvious or clear mandate from our community. The death penalty, of course, is one of these.
So when it comes to situations like this, here is our general approach:
Define the two extremes. Set up the system where it's relatively easy to 'tune' between these two extremes. Implement during alpha and beta the system and adjust the 'tuning'. Watch the players, listen to the community, etc. Adjust accordingly and, hopefully, narrow things down.
This is, of course, a great example of why a long beta is so important to MMORPG development. Opinions and plans are great, but often until players are actually experiencing these critical mechanics and systems we developers need to wait and watch (and not commit to specifics).
So that will be our approach -- try the spectrum out in alpha and beta, listen to the community, experience it ourselves, and slowly but surely iron out the details.
Lastly, in the event that the community becomes truly split on something as critical as the Death Penalty and its associated mechanics, we always have the option to implement variations on the theme depending on the server/shard. Athough it's far too early to speculate with any certainty, the penalty for dying in Pantheon may turn out to be something that becomes part of our Alternate Ruleset Servers, with the details and severity depending on which server/shard you've chosen to play on.
Thanks for the post Brad. It sounds like you have some solid plans on how to approach the problem and your solution if the community is really split of maybe having alternative rule set servers with different death penalties sounds like a really good solution to a problem that might occur.
I guess we'll see how this turns out during alpha and beta testing and see what everyone wants at that point in time.
The Death Penalty Mechanic and Loss Aversion in MMO Design
As usual, a lot of really good points are made by Wolfshead in this blog entry. A must read, imo.
couple excerpts:
Wolfshead said:It is perfectly natural and instinctive to view an average player’s motivation to play a MMORPG to be about gain via mechanics that promote advancement. But the truth is that loss aversion is a far more powerful and less known motivator that explains why some MMORPGs offer a richer and more compelling experience than others. Most MMO studios have failed to identify and leverage this deep seated truth about what motivates us as humans and the results are virtual worlds that lack believability, excitement and immediacy.
Wolfshead said:In a past article, I remember recalling the experience of working on an isometric video game for one of the biggest publishers of a beloved space opera IP. At the point in development of the game, we had not yet implemented a “lives” mechanic. At that point in its development it was essentially a sandbox game where you could explore and engage in combat. It was mildly interesting but not really fun.
When we finally implemented the lives mechanic (I think it was 3-5 lives), the lead programmer noted to the rest of the team that he was finally starting to have fun playing the game. Suddenly the game we made had become fun overnight to a non-designer. Why? We introduced a finite number of “lives” and essentially created a penalty for dying i.e. the game was over and you had to start all over again.
Wolfshead said:MMORPGs that are properly designed create an environment that makes us fear virtual death because of the losses incurred. The fear of dying in a MMORPG is what makes them feel so strangely alive, visceral and real. That fear is the gasoline that fuels the player’s internal combustion engine of desire to become more powerful. That feeling of fear is a gift. It is something that precious few other video game genres can ever replicate. Unfortunately, that sense of fear is absent from most modern MMOs who have followed Blizzard’s development trajectory of seeing death as a barrier and a nuisance.
Without the possibility of loss, how can gain be meaningful? How can anyone derive satisfaction when there is little to risk and everything to gain?
I used to think Pantheon's death penalty should be harsh. Now I think it should be brutal.
I'm actually a little frustrated that modern mmos have made me forget just how important this mechanic is.
10% exp loss, corpse run. Pain and fear. Bring it on.
Having multiple servers with multiple rulesets and or lifestyles sounds like the closest we could get to satisfying everyone.
Maybe each server could vote on certain subtle variables.
All I know is that I NEED to fear death in order to get my heart racing.
I agree 100% with the post above mine.
Quick question - any MMOs have permadeath? No cleric nearby that can rez within a certain time window then the death is permanent. The mobs responsible for the death get the character's stuff added to their loot table. The player can then roll a progeny character. Make it more interesting by limiting cleric rez to a certain small number per game day.
Amsai said:@ Dullahan
Nice read. I cant say I disagree with what I read. I can say making death too harsh would be a hard sale.
Oh btw. How Brutal? Im curious now.
Its hard to say exactly because I can't account for all of the variables. I don't know where we can or cannot bind. I don't know what kind of soft gating character equipment might involve (like extreme resistance to the elements to access an area).
Something just shy of permadeath, lol. Especially at higher levels in harder content. I think the penalty for failure should become increasingly steep. I think it should be a challenge to both gain and maintain higher levels - particularly max level.
Aradune said:... Define the two extremes. ..
Extreme #1: Vanilla EQ:
Naked spawn at Bind-point. Corpse holds gear at death-point. Corpse decays over time.
No location/marker given for corpse, corpse draggable with consent.
EXP loss (recovered % of this if Rezzed), un-level possible.
Extreme #2: Vanilla VG:
Got to VG just bit after start /didn't die enough to recall...
Can anyone remember?
SUGGESTION:
When I talk about death penalties - in particular Corpse runs (CRs), people always talk to me about 'loss of immersion' and them not liking the mechanics as they feel it disconnects them (as naked character who is not dead) hunting for their corpse to loot. I liked, what is now referred to as 'harsh' death penalties, but do think there *may* be ways to improve the player's experience. To get Corpse runs to ADD to immersion, not detract. It (sort of) links into the 'Progeny' idea Pantheon are hinting at. SInce they have not yet revealed any details, I iwll hijack the idea hehe.
1. Point of Death:
When you die, your body falls to the ground DEAD. It is a container with your gear which can be dragged with consent. Perhaps auto-consent (or pre-consent toggle option) for group-mates. After a set time (5-30 mins, say, or if your group has nobody within 10 metres) your corpse is replaced by a graphic of turned earth (perhaps with headstone - mebbe lev 1-10 wood, 11-20 wood cross, 21-30 small stone cairn etc), your corpses being 'buried' 6 feet under! Now it needs to be (a) dug up with shovel (b) as per usual corpse once dug up (perhaps some gear dmg?).
2. Point of Re-Spawn:
You re-spawn at your bind point (Town) ... but with a difference (or optional one). IF you opted to 'write a will' and named your inheriting 'Progeny' in it, AND you used up a free char-slot (or linked sub-slot depending on VRs methods) to create your progeny ... then instead of appearing naked as a 'dead yourself', you appear as YOUR PROGENY! It should have a pre-determined appearance, race, class etc and will have either level0 or some (much lower 'bank' of exp to spend on a) level dependent on your main-char's actual level.
3. To Corpse Run or NOT to Corpse run, that is the question...
Your progeny can, of course, press the BIG RED BUTTON marked 'I inherit everyting, woohoo' at which point the progeny mechanics come into play, your main is killed off and you rise as your progeny etc... (ask Brad about what he plans for the Project mechanics :) to replace this text)
OR
you can do the CR as per before - it is just done as the projeny and not as a naked character. This char can only have gear taken from Main's bank (or has to be given it etc beforehand) Indded, you should be able to login to your Progeny, but be limited, perhaps, to being stuck in a town only!. You can visit the bank, buy stuff, perhaps even trade... who knows. Some may use it as an Alt of sorts, waiting in the wings for the main to die a horrible, albeit heroic, death!
4. Back at the corpse.
Once your Progeny gets back to your corpse (it should receive all chat aimed at your main, plus be able to consent etc for your main), it then deals with it as per usual. It (digs up if necessary) and loots all your items.
5. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps....
Here there could be a few ways to sort out the ending. Could be choice or could be forced by rules!
(a) Character stands, dresses and sends AI progeny 'home'..
(b) Progeny drags character all way home to town where it is rezzed in town (NPC rezzer = 0-small exp backfor $$$)
(c) Progeny sheds crocodile tears for your loss,
grabs phat lewts, 'buries' your corpse in the nearest crocodile,
and runs off to town singing the 'I am the new Main, I have all the bling woohoo' song...
END SUGGESTION:
PS you guys should *really* read your Bartle, if you have not already!... try mebbe
http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf
It was the corpse decay aspect of EQ1 that MADE me stay up and go get my corpse.
Between the 2 hour exp rez timer and your corpse rotting after 7 days, every life and death situation in game turns in to a true fight or flight response. Heart pounds as you see it coming.
When you did get your corpse or finally get that 96% rez, the relief was almost euphoric (if the situation was dire) .
Those were the days.
This is a good one to prove I'm not a total Carebear hehe.
Death penalty, in my opinion, should be very harsh. I think it's an absolutely fundamental mechanic to *any* game, but even more so an MMORPG, and if you want your game life to be meaningful and thrilling, then death has to be respected and dreaded.
I would want it to be as harsh if not more harsh than in EQ (!)
I think a very large part of what made EQ and other early games (not just MMORPGs) so... (hard to think of the right word)... gripping? is people *had* to be very careful and thoughtful and tactical or you had to 'start again'. The only way to get people into that intense tactical groove is to make the alternative just not work. Sure if the content is difficult, that slows things down, but the 'difficulty' of content comes down to 'do we die or not'. You have to stop people literally dead if they attempt to rush through content without due care and attention.
Death not being feared is what puts you into a roller-coaster, theme-park experience. You can rush in, willy-nilly, attempting encouters with the minimum of prep and tactics, using your own life as a 'probe' to test out the content. The roller-coaster is such a good analog, as it might still be 'fun' in a breathless flashy way, but it'll all be over very quickly and there's only a couple of them in the park.
So with that old-skool opinion stated, I would, however, like to see lots of changes and alternatives in Pantheon :) Some ideas: -
Death mechanics:
XP: On dying you lose XP.
This will need tweaking in alpha/beta/ongoing, but I think the amount should equate to maybe half 'a gaming session'. An hour's worth of XP, if the stated ideal session is a couple of hours.
XP: On getting to your corpse, you get XP returned.
You didn't in EQ - not P99 anyway - did this change later? You'd need a high level cleric to cast a resurrection spell to get much XP back. I think you should get a little XP back if you make it to your corpse.
Items: They stay on the corpse.
It's maybe the most contentious issue, but I think the corpse run necessitated by losing your items is the part of dying in EQ that is most scarey. Losing a chunk of XP sure bites, but it's the corpse run that really makes you want to avoid death.
Losing your items would probably be the equivalent of losing 100s of hours of game time even at lower levels. You should always be able to get them back somehow, imho. See 'rotting' below.
Rot: You get some time before your corpse disappears.
If there are items on the corpse and it rots away they should go somewhere you can 'pay' (not necessarily in money) to get them back. Maybe when all else has failed, there's a cleric 'service' to 'loot' your corpse, paying varying amounts of XP depending on the power of the items you choose to loot.
Ressurection: There may be ways to get XP back when retrieving your corpse.
In EQ, a cleric gets to your corpse's physical location and they can effectively summon you there. When you loot your corpse you get some of the XP back depending upon the power of the cleric.
This can trivialise the whole thing (people would park a cleric at the zone line and any time a buddy died, pop, they are back with next-to-no XP loss in minutes).
Maybe the character should have to be present to receive a ressurection?
Maybe the summoning of a character to their corpse is a different spell that results in reduced (or no) XP returned?
Locating: There may be ways to locate your corpse.
Losing your corpse is easy. You have sometimes just run for a long way in a panic. In EQ, necromancers can cast a spell to determine the direction of the corpse, ie. you have to persuade another player to take quite some time roaming the countryside casting a spell every now and again probably in a dangerous location. Good social experience? Well, maybe, yeah.
An alternative would be for every character to have the ability to sense their own corpse. I would like this, though perhaps it's use would reduce the XP regained
Dragging: There may be ways to move your corpse when with it.
In EQ you could give consent to other characters to drag your corpse (effectively a very short range summon). This removed the difficulty of having to reach the probably very dangerous spot you died in.
Does this trivialise the content that you defeated to get there and the content that killed you? Hmm. Kinda. I think if you corpse is dragged, any ressurrection XP should be reduced.
Summoning: There may be ways to move your corpse when not with it.
In EQ eventually (wasn't in P99 I don't think) high-level necromancers could summon your corpse to their location if they were in that zone. I like the option, but, again I think the XP from any subsequent resurrection should be reduced or removed. You get your items back without a difficult corpse run. Already a big bonus.
Ghosting: You become a 'spirit' at a nearby graveyard and are invulnerable for your corpse run
It's a cool idea, but the implementation in some more recent MMORPGs, meant you could effectively run to the end of a dungeon, die in the train of gathered monsters and then run your ghost in to start from where you died effectively skipping a whole dungeon of content. Death became a 'tactic' to make the game easier. The only 'difficulty' was the ghost run time itself (which wasn't large, because nearby graveyard and no fighting to do) and the location of your death (it became a tactic, as I say, and finding a safe spot to die isn't hard even in a deep dungeon).
Can this cool, but flawed, idea be improved? Maybe you could opt to be ghosted, but then you get double XP loss and no chance of resurrection?
Ultimate: A way of 'undoing' the death?
Often players don't have access to a high level necromancer or cleric or raid force to get back to their corpse or simply something buggy has happened to make corpse retrieval impossible. Something is making the corpse run just nightmarish.
What about an NPC-delivered method that perhaps costs you double the XP and some coin (or sacrifice of a couple of the items on the corpse?) to execute. Perhaps at the racial city you can get a graveyard summoning ceremony by the necro guild master, or a church altar resurrection by the cleric guild master. Or maybe this ceremony just 'ghosts' you?
Balancing: Difficult!
Wow there's a lot of things to juggle to make sure people don't just choose option X always and/or to make sure each option has a situational use, but I think it would add a lot to the game to have alternatives.
There's also some careful balancing against the ease of meeting your death. If the game sees you dying often, then a harsh death penalty might need toning down :/
Item durability: My stuff's fallen off!
This is in a lot of more modern games. Each time you die your gear is 'damaged' until eventually it becomes useless or 'falls off' into your inventory. Not permanent - needs to be fixed, possibly in town - a money sync.
I think the reason this became popular is it's an 'easy' replacement for the other potentially more 'severe' and 'punishing' mechanics.
Personally, I really dislike this mechanic. Yes, it's a time (return to town) and/or money sync (pay to repair or buy repair kits) so it discourages dying, but I think it's more to be irritated and bored by than feared and respected. I'd rather be scared to die then irritated by it.
Immersion: I appear naked at home and have to fetch my own corpse?
Yeah it's weird. A more reasonable alternative would be cool, but somthing like ghosting as default has too much effect as a mechanic - you lose a lot of impact for immersions sake, I think. Maybe just a tombstone appearing where you die (with your gear 'buried' in there) makes more sense and involves no mechanic change. Or perhaps just a pile of gear (no, I'm not suggesting someone else can take it!).
Had an idea: Maybe you *do* become a ghost, but you *can* be attacked (and fight) though you're interactions would be affected (NPCs won't deal with you, except at the church/graveyard. You are part of an 'undead' faction whilst ghosted... hmm). Importantly, you can talk to players to persuade them to help you (maybe even still group with them) and you have (most of) your abilities. Ooo gonna think more on this...
The need for death penalty
I'm just going to reiterate because I think it's so important. The severity (and fear) of death has a massive impact on the 'pace' of the game. If you want players to be tactical and thoughtful then you have to give them a reason to slow down. Sure, you also have to reward them, not just have negative reinforcement, but, hey, that's what loot and XP is for!
On this topic I'm very unsure what I think is the best for the game.
It depends to some grade on how easy it is to die in game. It should be punished if you are not paying the needed attention to the game or you are to greedy and pull to much mobs or you just made a big mistake. But if the game is really hard and you die often, even with full attention to the game and a carefull playstile, the penalty should not be that strong.
If the players make mistakes, they should be punished. If it is possible, which I don't think so, it would be nice, if the value, how hard you are punished for dying depends on the reasons and the consequences of your death. The penalty should be as huge as the mistake was. A minor mistake leads to a minor penalty and a huge mistake leads to a huge penalty. If the effekt of your death is the wipe of the raid the penalty is higher than if only you die. As said I don't believe this will happen in this way, but it could be otherwise balanced.
Penalties are as long fun, as they are not going to frustrate you. If even the easiest mob is strong enough to beat you over and over again and even with your best tries you can't defeate them and you get punished more and more, this is not what is fun for me. Of course there could be an area with this super strong mobs as long as there are enough other areas, where you mostly only die when you make a mistake. If the complete game is super hard, then at least the penalty for dying should not be that strong to keep the balance for beeing fun.
If I for example will die most of the time, because the game is so hard and I lose a huge amount of XP and get literally be beaten back to the character creation screen, then this is not fun for me. But the same is valid for the other way. If it is to easy and you have no penalties for dying this is also no fun. It depends on the good mixture of both.
I know "ghosting" from WoW and i find it OK. If you die, you will appear as a ghost on a grave yard and you have to run to your corpse. And the ghost corpse run could take a long time. Your items lose 10% durability and you also lose all buffs. Then when you resurrected near your corpse you had to regen because your health and you mana was very low. You had the option to resurrect at the grave yard but you items lost 25% durability and you had a debuff, which lowered your hitpoints and your damage output by 75% for 10 minutes.
I find this machanics is OK. It sucked to die but it was not so harsh that you wanted to cancel your subscription after a death.
Greetings
Evoras said:Extreme #2: Vanilla VG:
Got to VG just bit after start /didn't die enough to recall...
Can anyone remember?
I believe originally in VG you died and left all droppables on your tombstone (maybe just non-equipped). You also lost some experience which I believe was recovered partially (or entirely) for manually looting the stone and could also be restored with resurrection spells.
You respawned at the nearest riftway which were usually only a few minutes from anywhere. Don't recall whether you could originally summon your corpse to the riftway or if that was added shortly after. Its so hard to remember because things changed so much early on, then throughout the first year and again and again until it closed down.
I always felt it was too weak, even in its original form. I didn't remember much worry, tension or even disappointment if I died.
I have an idea for the next twitch stream........
Aradune: "follow me, hug the cliff-side!"
Joppa: "invis dropping, wait!"
Kilsin: "Monty, stop looking at the bear!"
disposalist said:...
Immersion: I appear naked at home and have to fetch my own corpse?
Yeah it's weird. A more reasonable alternative would be cool, but somthing like ghosting as default has too much effect as a mechanic - you lose a lot of impact for immersions sake, I think.
I'll have to think on it......
See my post above ^^ for an idea about CR's and immersion!
Ghosting from WoW was such a half-hearted slap on the wrist. I played EQ2 for about a year or so. I cant even recall what their penalty was.
I can however remember 10+ years ago in my time in EQ, 5 zone corpse runs with a class that couldnt SoW (run speed buff) or invis is where the fear of death really comes from.
Corpse runs also play a major roll in PvP. Many good times were had at naked peoples expense. Corpse camping was a thing (not common, reserved for the most hated). Dying PvP was embarrassing (reputation was in the line) and made you vulnerable. I hope with everything I have that this mechanic will exist in Pantheon (atleast on the PvP server).
Evoras said:disposalist said:...
Immersion: I appear naked at home and have to fetch my own corpse?
Yeah it's weird. A more reasonable alternative would be cool, but somthing like ghosting as default has too much effect as a mechanic - you lose a lot of impact for immersions sake, I think.
I'll have to think on it......
See my post above ^^ for an idea about CR's and immersion!
I did read it and it's inventive, yup, but I'm not fond of it, sorry hehe. It certaionly makes more sense than fetching your own corpse though :)
I had a thought while reading it though and edited my original post: -
Maybe you *do* become a ghost, but you *can* be attacked (and fight). Your interactions would be affected/limited (NPCs won't deal with you (sell, quest, etc.), except at the church/graveyard (corpse related activities). You are part of an 'undead' faction whilst ghosted... hmm. Maybe there are some NPCs you could deal with and quests and things you can only do as a ghost!...
Importantly, you *can* talk to players to persuade them to help you (maybe even still group with them) and you have (most of) your abilities to do the corpse run. You can perhaps still collect basic equipment from a bank or your house to help you (otherwise a melee ghost is greatly disadvantaged compared to a caster one). Hmm that's a bit clunky - what if you're ghost has limited ghost versions of your equipment? Hmm.
Ooo gonna think more on this... I like it - then I would - it's my idea.
Landbert said:On this topic I'm very unsure what I think is the best for the game.
It depends to some grade on how easy it is to die in game...
That is very true. If the intended difficulty will *expect* to see you dead every few minutes, like Dark Souls or some such, then a severe death penalty would be bad. In my opinion that's fine for a single-player console game, but though it produces a 'difficult' game (when beta-ing balance, they no doubt erred on the side of killing you rather than 'matching' you to the encounter), for a group-based MMORPG, the balancing is way different. Ensuring difficulty by balancing toward death would be a lot more severe for 6 to 8 people with no pause button.
Me, I would prefer a severe death penalty with the expectation that you can, *if you are careful and skillful*, not die for many many hours.
EQ was a (relative to today's MMORPGs) difficult game and you could still go for a long time without dying *if* you took precautions and were careful.
I know of several occassions where group members took too much risk endangering the whole group and got kicked for it. You don't 'mess around' when deep in a dungeon, because it could kill everyone and cost people RL hours (as a group total) to recover. There was pressure and there was excitement because of it.
But yeah, tough to balance.
Sorry but EQ death penelty was a small annoynace at Endgame. For well ran guilds it hardly slowed them down. IF we want a real hard core game then lets have real death Penalties.
1: If you die in combat you loose all carried coin and one piece of gear takes a 5 percent Durability hit (At 100 percent that piece is gone forever)
2: Once you die and revive you must run back to get the corpse while under a massive revive penelty. There is no way to remove this affect unless you get your corpse. If you can;t get it you must go back to town to summon body and start your famring run all over. No corpse summon or dragging
3: Massive XP hit that results in lost lvls.
EVE had an amazing death penalty that made EQ look carebear. You lost a ship that might have taken months to build. You had to go back to try and get your salavage. Iff you forgot to update a jump clone you lost days if not weeks of leveling. Nothing better then watching a pilot lose a titan worth 8 grand in real world cash.
Kalgore said:Sorry but EQ death penelty was a small annoynace at Endgame. For well ran guilds it hardly slowed them down. IF we want a real hard core game then lets have real death Penalties.
...
3: Massive XP hit that results in lost lvls.
I agree. The main thing that made death so trivial at high level was access to resurrection spells that returned so much of your experience.
I don't think there should be a spell that returns more than 50% of your experience. Perhaps some rare expendable item or something, but not a normal spell. If they do decide to add a spell that returns more than 50% experience, the reagents for it should be bank breakers.
Dullahan said:Kalgore said:Sorry but EQ death penelty was a small annoynace at Endgame. For well ran guilds it hardly slowed them down. IF we want a real hard core game then lets have real death Penalties.
...
3: Massive XP hit that results in lost lvls.
I agree. The main thing that made death so trivial at high level was access to resurrection spells that returned so much of your experience.
I don't think there should be a spell that returns more than 50% of your experience. Perhaps some rare expendable item or something, but not a normal spell. If they do decide to add a spell that returns more than 50% experience, the reagents for it should be bank breakers.
Definitely. Many times playing EQ P99 players had cleric alts with epic weapons parked in the zone. They just click a button for 96% of XP back. Didn't even cost mana, never mind cash. Most raids after a wipe are up-and-running for another go after 5 minutes.
Being high-level should have perks, but should being unconcerned about death be one of them? Hmm
Ok, just going to throw an idea out there. I have not had the time to read all 10 pages of this thread, so I don't know if this has been proposed already, but I think it is unlikely. Like it or dis-like it, I am just brain storming here:
What if when you died, you were given a choice on how you wanted to be "re-animated". You could either come back "drained", and lose a chunk of EXP, or you could come back with a semi-long term de-buff that could not be removed in any way. The de-buff might reduce your max HPs, mana, AC, and other defenses by 60%. Effectively taking you out of combat. The length of time on the debuff could correlate to your exp level. As an example: A level 5 might have a 5 minute de-buff, but a level 50 might have a 25 minute de-buff.
Also, what if the level of a resurrection spell did not affect that amount of EXP you would get back (or lack of de-buff), but instead affected the level of target you could resurrect. Also, it would allow you to resurrect with your party, rather than at your bind point.